Chris Clinard: I recently recorded a podcast with a CEO who was in Sweden, and you’re in Paris, right?
Anna Lecat: Correct.
Chris Clinard: This has become an international week of interviews for me.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. It’s great.
Chris Clinard: It’s so good to finally meet you. I’ve been looking into your work, your background, and the mission behind your book. I want to make sure I mention it because we have it on the Books4Guys website: Loving Conflict: Creating Collaboration Where Others See Division.
I can’t think of a better time for this book to be out in the world, Anna.
Anna Lecat: It’s true that it’s really necessary. I think we are staying further and further away from difficult conversations.
Most of us are already conflict-avoidant because we grow up being told that it’s better to avoid conflict. We are taught that love means not saying the difficult thing and simply dealing with it ourselves.
Nowadays, as we become increasingly polarized, we try even harder to avoid those conversations. This applies to so many areas of life, not only our personal and professional relationships, but also politics and religion. Everything feels quite divided.
Chris Clinard: I’m looking forward to exploring this because I’m a huge proponent of conversation and talking with people. I was speaking with someone the other day and said, “We’re so much more alike than we are different.”
You may think you’re completely different from someone based on what the news or social media tells you. But when you spend ten minutes having coffee with that person, you often discover how much common ground you actually share.
The conversations you encourage in your book are so important. They’re refreshing, they make people happier, and they make life better for everyone when we learn how to have them.
I’d like to start at the beginning. You’ve been a business owner and founder in several countries, including China, Ukraine, France, and the United States. Where did your entrepreneurial spirit come from, and what led you toward such global work? That’s a difficult path for many people.
Anna Lecat: I grew up in Ukraine, and both of my parents were entrepreneurs. I watched them shape, design, and redesign their lives and careers according to what was happening around them.
When I was 17, I really wanted to leave Ukraine. The Soviet Union had just fallen apart, and it was difficult to leave the country or obtain visas to go anywhere. I wanted to explore the world.
I had this idea that freedom existed somewhere else. I was certain that if I could reach the United States, I would finally be completely free. At 17, I began my quest to reach America and become an American.
I couldn’t go to the United States immediately, so instead I joined a program that allowed me to study Chinese and attend a university in China. I thought, “All right, I’ll get there eventually. Maybe the path won’t be direct, but I’ll reach it at some point.”
I went to China, studied there, and learned to speak Mandarin so fluently that, if you speak with me on the phone, you might not realize that I’m not Chinese. I traveled all around the country.
By the time I was 19 or 20, I had started building businesses simply because I was so curious about the culture and the way things worked. Chinese culture is highly entrepreneurial. I would say that almost everyone is an entrepreneur in China. Very few people seem to prioritize the safety and security of a regular paycheck.
I found people who were willing to build something with me. Around that time, I met my first business partner, a Chinese businessman who was about 20 years older than me. He met me and essentially said, “This sounds interesting.”
I had so many ideas and was full of enthusiasm for business. I hadn’t studied business, and I didn’t speak English particularly well, but I said, “We’re going to bring American brands into the Chinese market and help them establish themselves in China.”
He said, “That sounds great.” He helped me fund and establish the company. From that point forward, I continued building my own path.
Chris Clinard: That’s so interesting. I saw that you’re fluent in Mandarin and that you love tango. You’re a very well-rounded person with many interests and passions.
I always encourage people to live somewhere else or experience another culture when they have the opportunity. I studied Spanish in Costa Rica, and it was one of the most memorable experiences of my life. It happened during the World Cup, and it was incredible to be in another country where that was the national sport being played on a global stage.
Living somewhere else opens you up. At the same time, I discovered again that people are more alike than they are different. We may speak different languages and look different, but we often enjoy the same things. We could talk about music and find all kinds of similarities.
Continuing with your business journey, I really liked what you said about almost everyone in China being an entrepreneur. People aren’t necessarily afraid to branch out and leave what feels comfortable.
In the United States, many people want stability. They want to make sure they can pay their bills, and then, perhaps 20 years later, they regret not taking a chance. It would be interesting if that shifted somehow.
Besides that entrepreneurial attitude, what were some of the most interesting things you encountered while doing business in different countries? In the United States, people are sometimes afraid to start businesses because they don’t understand sales tax or the many laws and regulations that business owners have to learn. Is it like that everywhere? What major differences have you experienced?
Anna Lecat: Everywhere you go, you need to learn the rules of the game. What matters is that you continue to see it as a game and enjoy playing it.
It’s like playing a sport. You may experience difficulties, there are rules, and there may be a referee. But as long as you love the game, treat your partners and teammates with respect, and listen to one another, you have a chance to win. Even when you lose, you still love the game.
That is something I learned early: keep enjoying it.
My Chinese business partner has a wonderful sense of humor and also treats business as a game. We don’t take one another or ourselves too seriously. Because of that, no matter how difficult things became, and business was and still is very difficult, we could continue.
For example, I currently have a business in China that helps American companies manufacture highly innovative products. We build supply chains for them in China. During a trade war between China and the United States, that is a very difficult business to operate.
No matter how many years you have been in business, difficulties will continue to appear. But as long as we can say, “All right, this is exciting. How are we going to handle it?” without becoming overly serious about ourselves, we can continue.
We forgive ourselves for our mistakes because we make plenty of mistakes in business. We learn from them, and we forgive one another. Then the process remains joyful, and that joy gives us the energy to keep going.
Chris Clinard: What I’m hearing is the importance of passion and the desire to keep learning. You figure things out, you don’t remain afraid, and you have fun with the process.
You’ll experience failures and wins, but as long as you enjoy the process and everything that comes with it, entrepreneurship can be a wonderful path.
You’ve built businesses in different countries, so where did your interest in conflict begin? Working with different cultures and people must have created tension around what to say, what not to say, and how to communicate. I’m sure you learned much of that as you went.
When did it click for you that you needed to speak more about conflict or write a book and share these ideas with others? What did that path look like?
Anna Lecat: From the very beginning, when I started my first business at 19 or 20, I noticed that the people who don’t avoid conflict, who enter the difficult conversations, are the ones who eventually win.
I learned in China that you need to have the conversation. What matters is how you have it. It isn’t a question of whether you have the conversation. It’s how.
I was already creating conflict simply by being a foreign woman in a country where I didn’t understand how to do business. We began in a technically demanding manufacturing industry. I spent days at factories building things alongside men.
There was already conflict every time I entered a room. People looked at me, and I was an outsider on many different levels.
We had to talk about it. I understood that if I didn’t name the conflict, the situation would remain awkward. Trust wouldn’t be built, and we wouldn’t be able to collaborate.
I learned very early to name it immediately: “Yes, I’m a foreigner. Yes, I’m a woman. Yes, there are many things I don’t know. But I want to be your partner. Teach me. I’m enthusiastic, I respect you, and I’m prepared to work hard.”
By the nature of who I was, I represented conflict in that environment.
Nowadays, I’m from Ukraine, and there is a war in my country, so I’m in the middle of a major conflict. As I mentioned, I still have a business in China, and we’re in the middle of a trade war.
Every time I begin working with a new American customer, we have to ask: “Should we take this project to China? How do we work with China now? What do we do about tariffs? Does it make sense? Do we trust one another?”
Conflict has been a continuous thread throughout my life.
I also had a fashion brand. We manufactured the clothing in Shanghai, had a design office in Paris, and sold the collection in the United States through retail stores in California.
That created a multinational team. How does a French designer communicate with a Chinese manufacturer and an American sales team? There were conflicts everywhere.
I eventually understood that conflict is a feature of every relationship, whether personal or professional. If I want a relationship, I will experience conflict within it because no one is exactly like me. I even experience internal conflict with myself.
Conflict is a feature, not an anomaly.
I continued studying it, reading books, attending school, and hiring consultants so I could understand it more deeply. When the war in Ukraine escalated in 2022, I decided to begin speaking and teaching about conflict more actively.
I wanted to serve my country, but I also wanted to serve everyone by sharing what I knew and continuing to learn together.
Chris Clinard: That’s incredible. I love speaking with people like you who have done remarkable things and learning about the thought processes behind them.
You’ve experienced more conflict than most people because of where you come from, who you are, and where you have chosen to do business. There is some form of conflict in your life every day, even when it isn’t coming from the same place.
You have a unique background and are especially qualified to speak about this topic.
When you work with a company and consult with its teams, what pain points do you commonly see? You’ve already mentioned that people avoid conflict, but a business can’t be successful without confronting and working through it.
What are some of the high-level ideas you begin with when helping organizations improve?
Anna Lecat: First, we identify the biggest conflict within the team. That will be different in every company and can also change depending on the moment.
For example, many companies are currently asking how to introduce artificial intelligence and become AI-native. Conflict appears immediately because the technical team often wants to move quickly, while a more traditional team may say, “Slow down.”
Customer service teams, for example, may find themselves in conflict with the CTO, the technical team, and the CEO. Customer service may say, “Don’t let us go. We need to keep holding our customers’ hands.”
When the teams begin communicating, the disagreement can quickly escalate into an argument they don’t know how to have. Each team remains in its own position: “This is what we think.” “No, this is what we think.”
Collaboration becomes impossible. Eventually, it turns into, “We already told you what to do, so do it because we said so.” No trust or collaboration can grow in that environment.
Another situation I frequently work with involves a highly successful, highly skilled CEO and a board that wants to control that CEO. The CEO doesn’t want to be controlled. They have different visions, interests, stakes, and positions.
I come in and help them speak so that both sides can understand one another and understand what each is trying to accomplish.
Chris, regardless of the visible conflict, the deeper questions are always: What is the other person afraid of? What fundamental value are they trying to protect?
When we are fighting from the position of “I’m right,” we are defending ourselves while the other person is defending themselves. We aren’t asking the right questions. We are simply saying things that we may later regret.
I facilitate a conversation in which everyone calms down and is no longer emotionally flooded, so we can return to rational thinking. Then I help the individuals or teams ask one another:
“What is your most important value?”
“What is your primary goal?”
“What are you afraid of?”
“How can I support you?”
When people hear the other person describe what they’re truly afraid of and the value they’re protecting, the conversation becomes completely different.
A customer service professional might say, “I chose this career because I care about people. I’m afraid that if we introduce AI, we’ll forget about people and our customers won’t receive the care they need. Caring for people is the entire purpose of my career.”
Now the technical person understands what that person cares about and why they’re there. They can interact with the person’s deeper purpose instead of remaining on the surface and assuming, “They’re simply afraid of losing their job.”
The technical person might then say, “I care about innovation. I want us to stay ahead. I hear you talking about human values, but I’m afraid that if we don’t use AI to its full capacity, we’ll fall behind and destroy the company’s value. My values are innovation and creativity, and I’m afraid of losing those things.”
That is also extremely important to express. The customer service person now understands who they’re speaking with, what the other person’s purpose is, and what common ground might exist.
One idea that I believe is essential is that we always begin from “we.”
You and I, whether we represent customer service and technology or any other teams, have a problem together. It is not you against me.
We are still one team and one company. The problem is in front of us, and together we are going to work through it by discussing our values, purpose, deeper motivations, and fears. Then we can find a collaborative solution.
Chris Clinard: That makes a lot of sense. Many companies move so quickly that it’s difficult to pause.
People say, “We work together. We’re collaborative.” But beneath the surface, different groups are often opposing one another and fighting for their own priorities.
Sometimes it takes a mediator to come in and say, “Let’s take a moment. Let’s talk and find a solution that works for both sides.” Most of the time, it is possible to find one.
The same principle applies to business, romantic relationships, and almost everything else. Sometimes you need to pause, talk through the situation, and find a path toward common ground.
Do you ever find it challenging to persuade CEOs or board members to slow down and look internally at themselves and their teams?
Anna Lecat: Although I care deeply about slowing down and enjoy doing it, that isn’t actually what I ask leaders and teams to do.
I understand the importance of speed. Having built a successful business in China, I can tell you that the speed at which Chinese entrepreneurs and businesses operate can be ten times faster than what we see in the United States.
I’m very much in favor of speed, efficiency, and short meetings. A meeting doesn’t need to last an hour. Forty-five minutes is enough.
What matters is what we do and how we do it. It’s about our nervous systems.
Calming the nervous system can happen quickly when people are trained, but we must pay attention to our state and our bodies.
I conduct many embodied workshops with companies. I’ve brought tango into the corporate world. We dance tango, listen to tango music, lead, and follow. We notice how our bodies feel and observe the nonverbal signals of the people around us.
All of that can happen quickly.
You can be moving fast in a conversation and suddenly notice, “Something has changed. They aren’t present anymore. They’ve become upset or sad, and we are no longer truly having a conversation.”
At that point, I need to backtrack. What did I say? How can I reframe it? Do we need to pause? What is happening?
It’s about paying attention.
A highly skilled football player moves quickly, but they’re paying attention to what their own body is doing and what everyone else on the field is doing.
The process doesn’t need to be slow. It needs to be intentional.
Before entering these rooms, we need to train ourselves to know what we are feeling. Are my shoulders tense? Is something happening inside me? Am I relaxed? How am I breathing? What is happening with the other person?
You also asked me about the challenges I’ve encountered. Lately, the biggest challenge I’ve noticed is that people are becoming increasingly lonely. They are more alone in their lives.
I work with many high-profile CEOs and executives, and more of them are single and alone. When people are alone, they may not feel fully loved, cared for, or witnessed in their personal lives.
They bring that need into their professional lives because all of us need to be seen, loved, cherished, listened to, and respected. Some people may need it more than others, but it is a fundamental human need.
When we don’t receive that in our personal lives, we bring it into our work. We begin looking for more external validation.
When executives don’t recognize that this is happening, my challenge is to help them see it and shift some of their attention toward their personal lives.
I also work with couples and support people in their personal relationships because the two areas are deeply connected. When we become better at navigating conflict at work, we improve our personal relationships, and vice versa.
Chris Clinard: That’s interesting. I’ve recently had many discussions about people becoming more isolated because of technology and AI. People aren’t going out and creating relationships in the same way, and we need to return to that.
I also appreciate what you said about not needing to slow everything down. You reminded me of an interview I had earlier this week with a former fighter pilot.
He explained something similar. A fighter pilot doesn’t have time to stop everything. They learn how to recognize what’s happening, adjust, work with others, and make decisions.
Now it clicks for me. You don’t need to pause the entire process. You need to notice, recognize, and then move purposefully toward resolution.
You do many things. You run companies, consult with organizations, travel, and have now published a book. How do you personally balance your time and establish boundaries so you don’t become overwhelmed, pulled in too many directions, or burned out?
Anna Lecat: Thank you for asking. I also have three children, exercise every day, and dance tango.
To me, this is the great game of life: how do I balance everything without burning out? Perhaps that should be my next book.
Bodywork is the most important thing for me. Exercising every day, for example, is non-negotiable. I take care of my body very diligently because it is the vehicle that allows me to do everything else.
When I take care of my body, I have energy. I can travel all over the world.
I’m also very intentional about every conversation and everything I do.
I once learned a phrase from a teacher who told me, “Ask yourself in every moment what is pleasing you now, and only do what is pleasing you.”
I understand that this might sound a little “woo-woo.” Other people might use different language and ask, “What do you enjoy?” or “What brings you joy?” For me, the word “pleasing” feels tangible.
If I’m speaking with you right now, it is because this conversation is pleasing to me. This is exactly where I want to be at this moment. It aligns with my values.
I like what you do. I believe it is important for your voice to exist, and I want to participate in helping you build that voice.
That’s why I’m here. This half hour is exactly what I should be doing.
Because it aligns with my body, spirit, and values, I feel good about it. I carry that energy forward. After this conversation, I’ll have dinner with my children, and I’ll enjoy being with them because that is exactly what I’ll want to be doing then.
Chris Clinard: What about the things that don’t bring you joy?
You probably receive hundreds of requests from people who want you to do something or participate in something that doesn’t align with what nourishes you or helps you move forward.
How do you politely decline those requests and keep them from taking over what you need to accomplish each day?
Anna Lecat: I say no.
Chris Clinard: Is it really that easy?
Anna Lecat: I say no, and I use AI for many of the things I don’t want to be doing.
I also have a team and very good friends who know that if I begin slipping and saying yes to something that doesn’t give me energy, they need to intervene.
They will say, “What are you doing? What is happening here? Why are you having this conversation? Are you enjoying it?”
I’ve asked my friends to do this, and I express gratitude every time they correct me.
I use my community, my children, my husband, and everyone around me. They’re all allowed to correct me when they see that I’ve moved outside my “pleasure lane,” the place where I receive the most energy.
When they point it out, I trust them. I’ll say, “All right, I’m going to say no now because you’re right. This is exhausting me.”
Chris Clinard: Those sound like good friends and a good family. They help you stay on track.
I have one final question, which I ask everyone who appears on the podcast. I can see the bookshelf behind you, and I’m always curious: What is one book, or perhaps two books, that have meant a lot to you personally or professionally? What books do you recommend to others?
Anna Lecat: I love reading and rereading Viktor Frankl. He was an Austrian psychiatrist, and the book is Man’s Search for Meaning.
He writes about the space between stimulus and response. He survived the Holocaust and explored how people can endure terrible circumstances by finding meaning in their lives.
He explains that we need to develop the space between stimulus and response. Something happens to you, but you don’t respond immediately. You wait, realign yourself, calm down, and then deliberately decide what to do next.
I think that book is extremely important.
Another is a very short book called The Power of TED: The Empowerment Dynamic. It explores the drama triangle and how we can stop seeing ourselves as victims of our circumstances and instead become creators of our lives.
I find it incredibly useful in parenting and in my own life. It reminds me to continue taking responsibility for designing my life instead of blaming other people or my circumstances.
Chris Clinard: Those are great recommendations. I haven’t read either of them, but they both sound like books I would enjoy, so I’ll add them to my list.
Anna, this has been such a wonderful conversation. Thank you for taking time out of your busy day to share your story, mission, and the purpose behind everything you do.
I believe your work is important and impactful. Now that we’ve met, I’m excited to see what you continue to build and accomplish. Thank you for doing this. It has been amazing.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much, Chris. And thank you for everything you’re doing as well. I’m excited to follow what you’re building. It’s been wonderful. Thank you for your time.
Chris Clinard: I appreciate it. Thank you, Anna.
You can find out more on Anna’s website at annalecat.com.