Kirby Hasseman: Hey there, and welcome to a brand-new episode of Delivering Marketing Joy. I am your host, Kirby Hasseman. Joining me today is a brand-new rockstar. I’m super excited to dive into today’s topic because I have a feeling I’m going to learn a lot.
She’s a CEO across three continents, an author, a TEDx speaker, and she’s helping leaders have hard conversations that make or break both teams and deals. Anna Lecat, thank you so much for joining me.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much for inviting me.
Kirby Hasseman: I have to tell you, when it comes to this topic, it’s one of those things I struggle with. I want everybody to get along and be happy, and I know that’s not always how the world works.
I think most people are like me, and they avoid conflict, sometimes at all costs. What do you think is the real price businesses and leaders pay when they keep dodging difficult conversations?
Anna Lecat: We pay more. We pay much more. It’s very expensive to dodge difficult conversations because they pile up, and then they blow up in our faces.
We pay in real financial costs, but what matters most to me is that we also pay in trust. When we avoid a difficult conversation, we lose trust with that person, and trust is something that’s very expensive to rebuild.
Kirby Hasseman: Yeah, that makes sense. It’s one of those things I understand, but I still struggle to actually do it.
As businesses grow, the stakes of unresolved conflict seem to grow with them. What does that kind of unaddressed team tension actually look like inside a company that’s growing and scaling?
Anna Lecat: It’s really interesting to watch because when a company is growing very fast, what we see from the outside is the speed of growth. They’re hiring quickly, expanding, and making big changes, but friction grows at the same pace.
People gradually stop talking to each other. The first place we see the problem is that the most talented people stop speaking up. Your A players stop contributing.
And we know something about A players: if they don’t feel comfortable, if they don’t feel heard, and if they don’t believe they’re in a culture where they can truly express themselves, they leave.
Kirby Hasseman: Yeah, that makes sense. I also think there are different kinds of leaders. Some don’t want to have difficult conversations at all. Then there are leaders who are a little too abrupt when they take on those conversations.
Is there a better way to handle it, or is it simply that there’s a proper way to do this?
Anna Lecat: First of all, let’s just say it: we all avoid difficult conversations. It’s something we grow up with. Most cultures teach us to avoid them. Some cultures are a little less avoidant and some are more avoidant, but we are all avoidant.
We learn that this is how we express love: by not saying something that feels uncomfortable, by not respecting our boundaries, by not insisting on something, and by not bringing it up. Leaders are the same.
When I work with leaders, I usually see three styles. There’s the avoidant leader who simply won’t bring up a difficult conversation. Then there’s someone who will overpower the conversation or the conflict. And then there’s someone who will make it personal.
None of those approaches is advisable. What’s important to understand is that this is a skill. It’s simply something we were not taught well as children. Our parents were often avoidant too, so they didn’t model it for us, and it’s not something organizations usually teach.
It requires two different skills: communication and self-regulation. There is a lot of work involving the body, and that’s one of the ways my work differs from that of other conflict experts. I bring the body into the communication process.
It’s not just about following a script, saying the right words, and assuming everything will be okay. You have to ask: How do you feel? Do you recognize that you’re tense right now?
You can be saying the right words, but your body language can still be extremely defensive. You may be communicating, “I’m ready to attack because I feel like you’re attacking me.” That won’t work.
So there’s a great deal of self-regulation, mindfulness practice, learning the right scripts and approaches, and remembering that we are all on the same team. When we’re having a conflict, it’s not me against you. It’s us together against the problem.
It’s about sitting next to each other instead of facing each other from opposing sides. Again, that means bringing the body into it. How do we have these difficult conversations? How do we behave, how do we feel, and how do we address the issue?
Kirby Hasseman: Something you just said struck me because you said avoidance can be one of the ways we show love. I’ll be the first to admit that when I was younger, I was such a hothead. I had a temper, and I don’t want to behave that way anymore because I felt like I destroyed relationships because of it.
But then I think I swung too far in the other direction. Now I just don’t say anything, and I keep everything inside. I know that isn’t productive either, which is why I’m so interested in what you’re saying.
You mentioned body language and communication. Are there any other skills that immediately come to mind that I could get better at?
Anna Lecat: I think there’s a skill you’re already good at as an interviewer, and that is listening. Listening is such an underrated skill.
I have an entire listening workshop that I bring to companies, and it’s really interesting that the people who believe they are good listeners often need it the most.
Kirby Hasseman: I believe that.
Anna Lecat: What I teach is this: Can you listen while being ready to change your mind?
Because if you enter a conversation already certain that you’re right, you’re not listening. The other person doesn’t really have permission to be there if you’re already completely certain about your point of view.
It’s no longer a conversation. We become like two radios talking at each other instead of actually listening.
It’s useful to practice this in situations that aren’t very high-stakes. I do it through a lot of games and role-playing exercises. You can start by simply allowing somebody else to finish their sentence.
Even that is difficult, especially in American culture, because we’re taught to move quickly and speak over other people as a way of showing excitement and commitment to the topic. But if I speak over you and don’t let you finish your sentence, I don’t actually know what you wanted to say at the end.
I gave myself a challenge for an entire year. I decided I would let everybody around me finish their sentences: my children, my husband, my parents, my employees, my partners, everyone.
Do you know what I discovered? First of all, I needed something to help me calm down. I would carry beads, a stress ball, or a notepad so I could write things down because I felt so much pressure and excitement to jump in and share what I wanted to say.
But I found that when I let people finish their sentences, they often said something at the end that was completely unexpected. We cut people off because we assume we already understand what they’re going to say.
And because most people want to connect, be polite, and avoid saying, “Stop, I haven’t finished yet,” they simply allow us to interrupt them. Even when someone is looking for a word and we want to help them, it’s important to let the pause exist.
Kirby Hasseman: Yeah, I struggle with that. I’ll be the first to say it. I have a pretty excitable personality, but when people do it to me, it really annoys me. So it makes sense that I shouldn’t be doing it to them.
This is great. Let me ask one final question. Let’s say there’s a leader listening right now who knows there’s a conversation they’ve been avoiding. What’s the first step toward actually having it and hopefully making it productive?
Anna Lecat: Before having the conversation, ask yourself: What’s real?
Try to be a scientist in the situation. What is actually happening? How am I contributing to the conflict? What is my part in it? And what is actually going on with the other person?
There are two things I want to understand about every person I’m talking to. I want to know their values and their fears.
I want to know what they care about more than anything else in life. Is it justice? Is it self-validation? What are they trying to achieve? What are they standing for in this life?
Then I want to understand what they’re afraid of in their role and in their current environment. What are they afraid will happen? And then I address that.
I ask the same questions about myself. What do I care about here? What am I afraid of losing? What are my fears?
Then, when I enter the conversation, I make sure it’s clear that I’m not attacking anyone. It’s not an attack. I want to share my side of the situation, but I also want to hear the other person out. Ideally, I want to hear them before I speak.
I let them finish completely. I want to understand not only their point of view but what’s behind it. I keep digging: Why do you care? What are you afraid is going to happen?
There’s also something I learned from couples therapy. It was attachment-based therapy, and it may sound unusual, but I use it every day.
In couples therapy, they taught me that before you begin a difficult conversation with your partner, you say, “I love you, and we’re going to be okay.”
Then you have the conversation. At the end, you say again, “I love you, and we’re going to be okay.”
That works in romantic relationships, where the word “love” is appropriate. In business relationships, we simply replace it with, “I care about our relationship,” or, “I care about this project. This really matters to me, and we’re going to be okay.”
Then we dive into the conversation.
Kirby Hasseman: That’s powerful. I like that a lot.
Anna, this has been really wonderful. I’m going to go back and listen to this because I think it’s one of those things I need to hear over and over again. Where can people find more information about you?
Anna Lecat: I wrote a book called Loving Conflict. You can also find me on my website, AnnaLecat.com. I have a TEDx Talk, a TikTok account, a YouTube channel, LinkedIn, and all the other platforms.
I want to share this work because I would like there to be fewer destructive conflicts in the world. I’m Ukrainian, and there’s a war in my country. I would love for people to learn how to fight kindly.
I believe there’s a way. I know there is a way. These are simply skills that we can all practice.
Kirby Hasseman: This is great stuff. I really appreciate it. I assume people can find the book on Amazon and anywhere books are sold, right?
Anna Lecat: Absolutely.
Kirby Hasseman: All right, cool. If you’re listening, I’d encourage you to go check it out. This has been a really great conversation. We’ll have to do it again sometime.
Anna Lecat: I would love that.
Kirby Hasseman: Awesome. That’s going to wrap up this edition of Delivering Marketing Joy. We’ll see you next time.
You can find out more on Anna’s website at annalecat.com.