Anna Lecat: There are all kinds of hacks and tricks that I use personally when I’m speaking with somebody who I may be afraid of, dislike, or feel deeply uncomfortable with. I need to get to the point where I see their humanity.
Kristel Bauer: I’m incredibly excited to have Anna Lecat here today, conflict consultant and author of Loving Conflict: Creating Collaboration Where Others See Division.
Anna and I are going to talk about strategies for having tough conversations, and how to have them in a way that is actually productive. We’re going to talk about why taking a passive-aggressive approach is not the answer, what is really behind sarcasm, and lots more.
I’m really excited about this episode. Let’s jump into it and welcome Anna to the show.
Anna, I’m super excited to have you here. Thank you for taking some time with me today.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much for having me.
Kristel Bauer: My absolute pleasure.
Before we started recording, you were telling me how you’re from Paris, and currently you’re in the United States doing a speaking tour. You’re juggling all these different things. You have a new book coming out, so there is a lot on your plate.
I would love to start out with this: for those who are not familiar with your work, who maybe haven’t seen your TEDx talk, can you give us a little look into the work you’re doing and some of the things you’re really passionate about?
Anna Lecat: Yes, absolutely. Thank you.
I’m originally from Ukraine, and I’ve lived all over the world. I am on my third immigration. I moved from Ukraine to China, lived there for 15 years, then lived in San Francisco for 12 years. Now I am in my third immigration, in Paris, France.
I speak many languages. I’ve built several global companies in China, the U.S., and across the globe. My obsession has always been relationships, specifically when they are in high-stakes conflict zones.
Early on, I found that I actually love being in situations where there is a lot of tension because there is a lot of passion. People show themselves when they are that passionate. They show what they care about and what they are afraid of.
If we know how to be there, how to stay in that high-intensity zone, and how to stay open, kind, loving, and considerate, we can develop more trust, more collaboration, better teams, better business, better sales, better growth, and better relationships at home with our kids, parents, and partners.
Throughout my life, through immigration and building companies, that has always been my focus: what happens when people are in conflict? What happens when they dare to discuss the things they are scared to discuss? How does that process work, and how does it help us get closer and build better partnerships?
Now, after selling one of my companies, I have been looking back at what I built and why I built it. I realized that I want to share and prioritize service by sharing what I have learned.
My book is coming out at the end of March, and I am also traveling all over the world giving workshops on loving conflict. That is also what my TEDx talk is about: how to be in conflict and grow from conflict and tension into collaboration.
I use tango. I am also a tango dancer, and I use tango as a metaphor for connection. My workshops are full of dancing, movement, and connecting without words. We develop trust without words before we go into words carefully and deliberately.
Kristel Bauer: I love that. My book is called Work-Life Tango, so that’s amazing.
Loving conflict. This is something that, in our present reality, we hear about all the time. There are differing views. People have very strong opinions about different things. This can be a pain point for a lot of people, personally and professionally.
To start out, let’s talk about the professional aspect of this. If you are surrounded by people who have different views, and maybe you haven’t talked about some of the issues you’re experiencing, people can tend to avoid it.
There can be that undertone of frustration, but it’s not fully voiced.
What suggestions would you have for people in a work setting who have these internal feelings of frustration, but they haven’t voiced them? They haven’t actually had conversations about them. Instead, they’re just going through the motions and not actually working through it.
I would love to hear your thoughts for people who might be in those situations.
Anna Lecat: Absolutely.
We are all conflict avoidant. There are very few people who wake up in the morning and say, “I can’t wait to have that conflict,” or, “I can’t wait to have that difficult conversation with my coworker or my boss.”
It is intense. It is uncomfortable. It brings up our past traumas and our past bad experiences. It also might lead to a breakup, personal or professional.
So I totally get it. I have also always been conflict avoidant myself, especially growing up. I understand those feelings, and I totally respect them.
And I want to assure everyone that not having that conflict, not having that conversation, is not going to end well. We need to understand that not having it is not an option.
That is why I am traveling all over the world teaching people how to do it.
You know how the better we get at something, the more often we do it, and then we end up loving what we do because we are good at it. Once we become masters at having those conversations, we do them more often, and then we are less afraid to do them.
There are simple examples of this. A conversation with your boss about wanting a raise is a conflict with yourself first. You have an internal conflict, an imposter syndrome: am I actually worth it? How do I present it? Am I going to get rejected? Is it going to impact me?
That is the internal conflict. Then there is the external difficult conversation with somebody else.
When we work on those skills, we first work on where we are. Body awareness. Awareness of our feelings. Awareness of our sensations. Managing all of that before we come into the conversation, so that when we arrive, we are fully aware of where we are.
Stay calm. Stay grounded.
You talk a lot about this on your show, in your book, and in your keynotes: how to stay present and mindful of who you are and where you are.
For me, it is also very important to understand your values and know your why. Why are you doing what you are doing? When we lead with our values, we are so much more passionate, grounded, and aligned with who we are. Our points become much stronger.
Then we need to remember that in front of us is another human being.
There are all kinds of hacks and tricks that I use personally when I am speaking with somebody who I may be afraid of, dislike, or feel deeply uncomfortable with. I need to get to the point where I see their humanity.
I need to get beyond the difficult political opinion, or beyond the difference, to the point where I can see that this person also has values and fears. They also care about the same universal things that I care about.
We all want to be safe. We all want to be loved and valued. We all have more or less the same fears. We all have imposter syndrome, no matter where we are in our success and development. We all want to be loved, and we are afraid to be rejected.
What helps is to look at the person as if they are five or six years old.
You know how, when you are with your kids and you see them being tender and vulnerable, there is this feeling of, “Oh, look at this kid. They are right here, and I see them.”
When we are able to see somebody in our workplace as their six-year-old self, we become softer and gentler with our words. Then those conversations go better.
Kristel Bauer: If there is a conflict and you are feeling strong emotions, maybe you have walked into the office and something happens, and you are angry or frustrated, is it best, in your opinion, to have that conversation around that time?
Or is it better to regroup, process, calm yourself down, and then approach the conversation?
What would you suggest to people who want to have the best outcome?
Anna Lecat: First of all, I think the advice to regroup and take time out is great advice when we can manage it.
And we also need to remember that showing the other person your anger can be valuable when it is done well.
There is a book called Good Anger that came out a couple of years ago, and it talks about this: showing your anger, not making it about the other person, but explaining why you are angry and what happened inside you.
That can bring much more trust and collaboration because showing who you are to the other person develops trust. They know who you are. They trust you. They want to work with you. They will choose you over other people because you have had this moment together.
That is something I learned in China while building businesses there.
In Chinese culture, there is a strong focus on saving face and being careful with other people’s reputation and how they feel. You very rarely see explosions of emotion around the boardroom table, in business, or even in personal life.
But when somebody gets angry and feels aligned with their values, they will show it, and they will choose their words deliberately. They will talk from “I,” but they will show the feeling.
In that culture, there is respect for anger. There is not as much shame around anger as we often have in Western culture, because anger shows our values to other people and to ourselves.
If you go back to the last time you got angry at the workplace, it is interesting to analyze it even for yourself.
Why did I get angry? Which one of my values was touched there? Was it justice? Was it equality? Was it my love for the company and the product? Or did I not feel valued as an employee, as a human being?
What was important for me there?
Then talk about it in the moment, but not as, “You did something wrong.” It is more, “When this happened, this happened inside me, and I want to show this to you.”
Kristel Bauer: I think the big thing there is that it is being communicated in a respectful way. It is about how you are feeling and not attacking.
That is where people can get themselves into a lot of trouble. If they are feeling some emotion and they do not know how to manage it or handle it, they can say something they regret or act in a way they regret.
It is a delicate balance, learning how to navigate that.
For a lot of people, what I have found is that if they are avoiding having these conversations altogether, if they are avoiding conflict altogether, they can start to have passive-aggressive tendencies.
That can be really frustrating. There are undertones of saying one thing, but your behavior gives a different message. Or saying one thing with a certain tone that conveys irritation.
I think that can be really toxic in a lot of environments. What are your thoughts on that?
Anna Lecat: Absolutely.
When we work with teams, we go on a sarcasm detox. It is very hard because when we have avoided conflict for a long time, exactly what happens is that we develop a sarcastic tone.
We still want to express our discontent. It is still there. We all feel it, and it is impossible to carry it inside without expressing it. So it is going to get expressed somewhere.
It will be expressed through sarcasm, or it will be expressed at home with your kids, your spouse, or your friends. It needs to get out.
I would really love to remove the shame around expressing anger from our culture so that people can tell each other how they are feeling fully and not be afraid of being stigmatized.
Sarcasm is something I know well. I grew up in a very sarcastic household, and to me it was a normal way to behave.
Then, when I started moving around and exposing myself to different cultures through my immigrations, I realized that not everybody speaks sarcastically to each other. That is not necessarily how people communicate.
So I had to really redesign my communication style and unpack why there was sarcasm growing up, and what sarcasm is versus being funny.
Because I had to do it with myself, I now teach it to other people.
Most of the time, when we use sarcasm, it is because we have a request that feels too vulnerable to express.
A quick example: if I feel tender and I want a hug — and I love hugs, because hugs really calm my nervous system — but I cannot request it because it feels too uncomfortable, in the past I would use sarcasm.
I might say, “Well, are you just going to stand there?”
But “Are you just going to stand there?” is not going to bring me a hug. It is going to hurt the other person. It is going to feel yucky for me and for them. There is no connection. That is not connection.
When I put myself on a sarcasm detox, I had to find a way to ask for what I wanted vulnerably and openly, while being ready to be rejected, being okay with that, and not punishing people for no.
It is interesting to see this with teams. If there is an environment in a company where sarcasm is normal, and you remove it from the system, people are quiet for quite some time.
They realize that this is their habit every time they open their mouth. That is how they communicate with each other.
To me, it is better to stay quiet and think carefully about what words you are going to use than to speak fast and end up breaking the connection.
Kristel Bauer: That resonates for me.
Sarcasm, in certain situations, can be funny. But a lot of times, for me, sarcasm has always rubbed me the wrong way because I feel like it is a bit of a personal attack. It is trying to bring someone down a notch.
I have always had an internal clenching-up feeling with sarcasm. It is really interesting to hear you talk about looking into what it is really about. I think that is something a lot of people can relate to.
I would love to hear a little bit about your five principles. We do not have to go into all of them, but if you could share what that is about and maybe share one of the principles, that would be fantastic.
Anna Lecat: There are five principles for how we acquire the skills of conflict.
One of them that is extremely important is listening: the quality of listening.
The quality I would love people to learn and go deep into is this: listen ready to change your mind.
I think that is the only quality of listening we can use, especially when we are talking about things that are different, for example, when we have a political discussion with somebody who has a different view.
If I am not ready to change my mind about my point of view, then I am not curious enough to know what they have to say. I am just there to exchange words without any real intention of connecting with them.
They will not feel heard if I am not ready to change my mind.
I have been doing a lot of research on listening. Why don’t we know how to listen well? What is going on there? Why are we not taught this? In business schools, we are not taught how to listen.
There is a Harvard study that showed that people with power actually lose their capacity to listen. The more power they get, the less they listen.
Those of us who are CEOs, run businesses, or hold power may think we listen, but the first time I saw this, I thought, “Oh my God, I thought I was a good listener. Now I need to revise how this works and really watch it.”
If you watch interactions, notice how often people take a breath while the other person is still speaking. The other person has not finished their sentence, and already someone is getting ready to speak. That means they have already thought about what they are going to say without listening to the last word of what the other person was saying.
A great exercise is to let the other person finish the last word.
I did this for myself for 100 days. For 100 days, I would not say anything or start thinking about what to answer until the person said their last word.
You know how often it happens that somebody speaks and they cannot find the last word? And how often we want to help them and say something for them?
Try not doing that. Try not helping them.
It is awkward. I have to say, it is awkward. The conversation slows down.
But I assure you that if you are talking about teams, the team is going to produce much better results afterward, after you go through this period of time.
When I stopped finishing people’s sentences, they finished them differently than I thought they would.
It was fascinating because I thought I knew the word they wanted to finish with, and I would propose it. People are agreeable, and it is easier for them to accept the word. But if you let them finish, they may finish in a direction where you would not necessarily want to go, because it is uncomfortable or, as far as you are concerned, the wrong direction.
But let them, because then they will feel heard.
Kristel Bauer: So interesting. This has been really helpful.
We are starting to wind down. I am going to put links to your book and website. Are you active on social media?
Anna Lecat: Yes, absolutely. I am on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.
Kristel Bauer: All the things. Okay, I will put links to those as well.
We are going to close out with one final question. But before I do, is there anything else you wanted to share before we close out with that final question?
Anna Lecat: I want to reassure people who are conflict avoidant that engaging with conflict brings really good results to your families and to your workplace.
I am now in the middle of several major geopolitical conflicts. There is a war in my home country. I have also worked between China and the United States, where there is a trade war.
So I can assure you that it is possible, if you are mindful about it and really dare to engage with conflict, to get to amazing collaboration.
The business results are much higher with teams that collaborate than with teams that just stay polite to each other. The same is true with families.
So don’t be scared to fight. Just fight kindly.
Kristel Bauer: Thank you so much, Anna.
The final question I have for you is: knowing what you know now, what advice would you have given to yourself from ten years ago?
Anna Lecat: Ten years ago, I would have told myself to stay in my own lane more.
As I grow older and wiser, I realize that we are all good at something, really good at something. It is great to develop new skills, but it is also good to remember what you are good at and let people who are good at something else do that.
Kristel Bauer: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you sharing your insights. I learned a lot, and I am excited to share this.
Best of luck with the book launch, and thanks again for coming on.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much for your time.
Kristel Bauer: Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Until next time, this is Kristel Bauer with Live Greatly, inspiring you to awaken your ultimate potential.
You can find out more on Anna’s website at annalecat.com.