Colleen: Welcome, Anna Lecat. Thank you so much for being here.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me here.
Colleen: I am talking to you from Paris, France. I wish I could just beam myself over there and you could take me around Paris. I’ve never been.
Anna Lecat: Let’s do that. Next time we record in Paris.
Colleen: Perfect. The first question I ask all my guests is: are you a mom? And if so, what are the ages of your kids?
Anna Lecat: Yes. My kids are 9, 12, and 14. My 9-year-old is my daughter, and the older kids are sons.
Colleen: Wonderful. You are also a researcher and the author of Loving Conflict. So tell me about that. Tell me about your life’s work and what you are passionate about.
Anna Lecat: Absolutely. Thank you for asking. I have been an entrepreneur for 25 years. I started my career at 18. I am originally from Ukraine, and I moved to China when I was 17, then to the United States, and then to France. So now this is my third migration. For many years, I built global businesses between China, the U.S., and Europe, with global, multinational, multicultural teams. Through all of that business life, I kept noticing that people who engaged in conflict, who did not avoid conflict, were much more successful. And when I say conflict, I mean difficult conversations, tough conversations, the tensions that most people run away from. People who do not run away and who engage are successful. There is collaboration in their teams, and their families are close. So I started practicing early. Now what I am doing is giving back. I think it is an important skill to have: how to engage in conflict, how to listen, how to question without judgment, and how to see humanity in all of us. I continue my business, and I am also a consultant in conflict and intimacy. Couples, teams, and companies hire me when they have important conflicts they cannot resolve, or if they have a tough conversation they are scared to engage in. I come in and teach how to do it. I have developed a framework for how to engage in a very hard conversation kindly. We call it fighting kindly. I teach it, and then the participants practice. What we are looking for in the process is intimacy. That is why I say I am a conflict and intimacy consultant. Intimacy is not only romance or romantic love, although it is also that, and it is very important. For romantic love, as we all know, it is also very important to be able to engage in hard conversations. When I say intimacy, I mean the courage to be able to share the hard truth with another person, to be truly seen, and to truly see the other. That is what I do now. I travel all over the world. I give workshops and corporate training sessions on conflict and intimacy. I also work with couples who are under high pressure or who have problems. Again, I teach them how to hold hands through the difficult conversations.
Colleen: I love that. This world needs you. It needs your skills, and people definitely need these skills. My audience is moms of tweens, teens, and young adults, and many of them are married. I love this idea of conflict and intimacy. As you know, my first book was called Dial Down the Drama: Reducing Conflict and Reconnecting with Your Teenage Daughter, so we have a lot of similarities there. I love what you are saying about intimacy because I think we have to have that big picture. If we stop at just the conflict, there is a purpose to it. There is a purpose of finding a way through the conflict. I want to really dive into that. Since you have three kids, how do you do conflict with your kids?
Anna Lecat: Thank you for asking. Because this is my work, and because my kids know this is my work, not only do we practice at home, but they also bring me conflicts from school. The kids will bring their friends, and we will have those conversations with their friends as well. I am a confidant, and my kids are also becoming confidants for other kids. It is great because, as you know, the best way to learn is to teach. In our family, we have family meetings about once a week where there is a structure. Every member of the family brings up a topic that is hard for them to bring up. We create a very safe space. We know that one person speaks, and nobody else needs to defend themselves. If you feel defensive, do not speak.
Colleen: That’s good. It might be very quiet.
Anna Lecat: It is very quiet. Everybody has a notepad, and when they feel defensive, they write down what they wanted to say so they do not have to keep it inside, but they wait. We all wait until the person who has a grievance, dissatisfaction, or hurt feelings speaks until the end. Then everybody takes a turn to say something. Even if the grievance or conflict is between two people, everybody in the family gets to speak about it. We know that it is about staying present, checking with yourself, and checking how you feel right now. Do you feel hurt? Do you feel scared? If you feel scared, that is what you talk about.
Colleen: Oh, that’s good.
Anna Lecat: For example, my son might say, “My brother’s friend came in and did this. I propose that we establish a new rule that everybody who brings a friend…” And then he comes up with the rule he wants to suggest. Then it is my daughter’s turn to speak. This actually happened. She said, “I have a fear. I have a fear that when I bring my friends, they will not want to come to our house anymore because we have all these rules. So I am already feeling anxious about this conversation. I want to put the fear on the table.” Immediately, we all know that when we talk about fears, that is the real topic. Not what was on the surface, but what our fears are. So that is what we do as a family: family meetings weekly.
Colleen: I want to continue because this is interesting. When she said that, what happened?
Anna Lecat: Everybody acknowledges it. It is very important that she feels heard. Whenever the fear is on the table, everybody acknowledges the fear. She finishes speaking, and then there is always a facilitator. We switch who the facilitator is each time, so everybody gets to facilitate the conversation. Once each of us has been a facilitator, each of us knows how hard it is. So when we are not the facilitator, we are much more respectful of the rules, and we do not torture the facilitator. The facilitator will say, “She expressed a fear. Can everybody please acknowledge?” Then everybody goes around and says, “I heard you say that you have a fear. I hear you.” When we acknowledge the fear, the person who had the fear feels less fear because it was aired and openly said. Then we address it. “Do you want us to address it, or do you feel okay? Can we continue?” And maybe she says, “I feel fine right now. Let’s continue. I can now continue talking about the rules because I’ve said it.”
Colleen: That is so good. What happens when siblings get mad about things outside the meeting? A lot of the moms listening have kids who fight about things like, “You took my shirt,” or whatever those things are. What if stuff happens outside the meeting?
Anna Lecat: Because the meetings are so frequent, things often get brought there. For example, last night I was putting my 12-year-old and 9-year-old to sleep, and the 12-year-old mocked the 9-year-old. At first she said, “You’re mocking me. I hate it.” I was there, and I now know that whenever there is a semblance of conflict happening, it might not be a conflict. It might mean that I had those kinds of conflicts when I was growing up, and I think this is a conflict happening now. Actually, my kids taught me this. Whenever you think we are having a conflict, wait. We will tell you if it is a conflict. Maybe we are just being passionate. I learned that from karaoke. We played karaoke at home, and my older boys sing and play. We are very musical. They were singing karaoke, and I came in and heard my older one yell at the younger one that he was not singing in tune. I got so triggered because I want everybody to respect each other’s talents and lift each other up. It did not go well. Later, when we all calmed down, both boys came to me and said, “Mom, just so you know, we were not fighting.”
Colleen: You misunderstood.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. They said, “We were helping each other become better singers. We have an agreement between us that whenever either of us is not in tune or not on the rhythm, because they also play drums, we will correct each other. We have given permission to each other to correct each other at all times.” I sat there and thought, okay, first of all, I did not know that agreement existed. And second, I learned that whenever it looks like a fight, I need to check. I realized that my brother and I fought like this, and whenever my brother said I was not in tune, I got upset. I was taking that past experience and transferring it onto my kids many years later, when it had nothing to do with me and my brother. The same happened between my kids and my husband. Several times he got upset because he thought they were having a fight, and they were not. So at a family meeting, the kids agreed together that they would talk to us. They made a presentation about how we keep confusing healthy arguments with fights. They asked us to pause, count to five, and then calmly ask, “Is this a fight?” Then look at each participant and ask, “Is this a fight?” Because one person can think it is a fight and another person might not. They gave us a script to use when we get triggered. So last night, when my daughter said to my son, “You’re mocking me,” I thought, oh, I’m getting triggered because mocking is not okay. But then I remembered the script: one, two, three, four, five. “Is this a fight?” My son was in bed reading, and he said, “Oh no, no, no, we’re not fighting.” I looked at my daughter and asked, “Is this a fight?” She said, “It’s okay. It was unpleasant. I am going to bring it up at the next family meeting because it has been happening a lot in our family that I am being mocked. I would like to have this as a boundary. I will discuss it.”
Colleen: Wow. This is so helpful.
Anna Lecat: Really helpful. That is about family meetings. Now, I have something else because your question was how we handle conflicts in the family. There is something I do with my husband that we have been doing for many years, and I am now also transferring to the kids. I teach this in my workshops, but I was not doing it with my kids. Then one person from one workshop wrote to me and said, “Anna, I tried your facilitation that you do with your husband on my children, and it works with children.” I was like, oh, okay. So what we do with my husband is monthly. It is not a date. It is a time together, like a meeting. Each of us takes a notepad, and we have five questions that one person asks the other. When the other person speaks, the person asking the questions does not speak. It takes about half an hour. The person asking questions just writes things down. The questions are: What is the most difficult thing for you to talk about now? It is monthly, and usually it is a grievance. If he is asking me the questions, usually I am upset with him. But he cannot defend himself. He cannot say anything. He just listens and writes it down. The next question is: What are you most afraid of? Then: What is it that you need right now?
Colleen: Good, good, good.
Anna Lecat: Then the next one is: How can I support you? And the last one is more general about the month: Is there anything I can do to make you happier or make your life happier?
Colleen: Oh, that’s so good.
Anna Lecat: It works like a charm every time because we start with a grievance, then we go to fears, then we go to the rational part: what can be done? Then, when he asks me, “How can I support you?” that is such a heart-opening question. When he looks at me with innocent eyes and asks, “What can I do to support you?” I am already loving. My grievance is already melting. And then, “What can I do to make your life happier?” I remember that I am the priority, that I am loved, that I am safe. Most of the time, the grievance has already melted because when I talked about my fear, I understood it was not really about the grievance. It is like self-healing happens. And we did not go back and forth. There was no opportunity for him to make a mistake, to transfer attention, to say something he would regret later. All those things do not exist because all he is doing is writing things down. My husband is a CEO, a very successful man, and he is constantly giving advice outside the house. So for him to hear a grievance or a problem and not be able to say, “Let’s fix it, this is how we can fix it,” is hard.
Colleen: Oh, for sure.
Anna Lecat: Right. It is hard for all of us. But the fact that we have established this framework where he cannot say anything and can only listen is really wonderful. Then I finish, and it is his turn to talk. We have now started doing this one-on-one with the kids too. It takes time.
Colleen: That is brilliant because you are interrupting the defensive pattern, the criticizing-defending pattern.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. We are reminding each other that it is about love and that we care about each other. This dive into fears is so important. I do not think we do it enough, this focus on the fears.
Colleen: No, you are so right. I think fear is what destroys relationships. Unexpressed fears, or not diving into those fears, because people think that is the truth. If they don’t express it, they think that is what will happen. That is so good. What do you see as the components that make conflict unhealthy?
Anna Lecat: First of all, whenever there is violence or aggression, that is not the conflict I am talking about. We are talking about hard conversations. When there is violence, we first need to address violence. We know violence is a cover-up for fear. It is a defense mechanism for fear. So how can we go beyond violence into what that person is afraid of right now? I would say it is unhealthy when it is violent, and our task is to get to the bottom of that. Another one is when there is no presence, when people are absent, when one person checks out. If there is no attention, if people do not care about the other person or about each other, it does not work. I also think the skill of listening is something we do not teach enough, model enough, or practice enough. When one or both people are not listening carefully, and when people do not have the experience of being listened to, we are not having a conversation. That needs to stop. This actually happened to me the other day at TEDx. One of the speakers kept talking at me, not with me. Everybody else was watching. I tried a few times to say things that often work, to get beyond what was going on with them. I know that if somebody is talking at me, they are actually triggered. They feel unsafe, so they cannot stop talking. Something is going on with them. Maybe they do not feel confident, maybe it is imposter syndrome. Something is happening where they need to advertise. It is like radio broadcasting. I tried to reassure them that I was there, that I was impressed, that they were great, and it kept not working. So I disengaged because it was not the right time. Maybe next time it would be. People around me said, “Oh, you disengaged? But we thought you were an expert in conflicts.” First of all, I am not an expert. I am still learning and researching every day. And I think it has to be the right time and the right place. If this is not working, it is better to restart some other time. It is an infinite game. I do not have to do it right now. They are not feeling well enough to have a conversation with me, and they need to care for themselves right now. And so do I.
Colleen: I agree with that. When I was doing my research for Dial Down the Drama, it was really based on a lot of brain science and understanding that if we are emotionally flooded, we do not have access to the part of the brain that can problem-solve or listen. If that person at TEDx was upset, nervous, or anxious, he could not hear you. I think that happens a lot with families. It is about being smart enough to know that this is not a great time to have a conversation because there is so much anger and upset. When things calm down a little bit, then you can have the family meeting.
Anna Lecat: Absolutely. Nowadays, there are so many people who stop talking because of different beliefs, viewpoints, or political beliefs. I am now working a lot in that sphere. I am personally in the middle of several geopolitical conflicts because I am Ukrainian, and Russia is at war with Ukraine. I also built business between China and the United States, and they are in a trade war. I am Jewish, I have family in Israel, and I have friends in the Palestinian community. So I am right in the middle of that conflict also. I facilitate groups where Palestinians and Jews, for example, have conversations. In my business between my Chinese team and my American team, it is very hard right now because there is such a flood of information. People stay in information bubbles, and their biases, beliefs, and opinions are constantly confirmed. Many people will say those conflicts are bad conflicts. For me, those are very interesting conflicts too. These conversations where your family member voted for a different political party, and Thanksgiving is coming up, what are we going to do at that Thanksgiving dinner when that uncle comes and says something that upsets us and goes against everything we believe in? Can we still have dinner? Can we still connect? Can we still love on each other? I say yes, because I love conflict. It takes a lot of presence, careful listening, and the skill of asking that uncle the right questions. What do they believe in? What are their values? What are they afraid of? Rather than just, “This is what I heard on TikTok.”
Colleen: This is so good. I could ask you five million questions about everything you just talked about. My heart is so happy that you are doing this work. It is so needed. It is so sad to me, all these divisions. If you can get people talking and seeing that we are all human, that could change the world. So how can parents transform everyday conflict into deeper connection with their teens? That was the theme of my first book. Conflict can sever connection if it is not handled right, and it can start wars and do horrible things. But you are right. Conflict is taking down the wall and taking down the fear so you can really see the other person and have connection. Can you speak to that?
Anna Lecat: Yes, exactly. And you wrote the book about it, so you know this topic really well. Conflict is the opportunity for us to take the walls down, to take our armor down, and show our teens our humanity. I think so many parents are afraid of losing their authority. Yet these are opportunities for us to teach our kids how to be adults. What else is being an adult, if not being responsible for our biases, triggers, and fears, and knowing all those things, giving our kids a blueprint of ourselves? I talk to my kids all the time about where my triggers come from. They know what I am afraid of. My husband loves sailing, and I am very scared to be on the boat. When that boat tilts, my cognitive function is gone. The flood is real. At the very beginning, we thought maybe it was better if I did not go on the boat and my kids went with my husband so they did not absorb that fear, because mommy getting all crazy might teach them that something is wrong with sailing. Then I thought, no, I am committed to showing the kids my humanity. It is by seeing my humanity that they will be able to show theirs to me at all times, so that I can interact with it. So that when they are teens, I can still hold their hand through all the hormonal changes and all the hardships they will go through. I started going on the boat with them and talking through it, explaining and telling them what I feel. They can see me in fear, and they can hold my hand, and it is okay. I am still their mother. I am still an authority figure. They still respect me. I do not lose the respect of my children because I am afraid of sailing.
Colleen: Yes.
Anna Lecat: It is the same because I live with my parents, so my children see me interacting with my parents all the time. Whenever my parents and I have a conflict, I will go to my kids and say, “Oh damn it, did you hear me just now? I shouldn’t have done this. I need to call my mom now. I need to go talk to her.” And they say, “Oh yeah, mommy, we saw that. What happened there?” That openness, vulnerability, and authenticity gives me permission when something happens with them too, because we all get flooded. It gives me permission to say, “Hey, I saw that.” We are equal in that way because there is humanity. I think every conflict is an opportunity to show more of ourselves to them and to see more of them. Then we build the bond. I believe embracing conflict is about building the bond so that when we have something that divides us, it will hold us together. Because of course things will divide us daily. The fight with monitors, video games, and social media is daily. To me, we are divided daily. Every time I tell them they are not allowed to watch YouTube Shorts, it is a divide. So I need to build constant bridges with my kids so that when they look at me with that, “Why are you not like all the other parents who don’t care about social media?” I can lean on all the respect I have built with them and all those repairs we have done over and over again. They remember that I am that person they have learned from in all those other places. Now we can cross that divide and bridge it.
Colleen: That is so good. I found that probably one of the most important things I would do if there was conflict between me and my daughter, and of course when there is conflict, a mother thinks she is right, was to ask, “What is my part?” I would feel so much resistance to it, but I needed to find my part and say I was sorry for my part. That was probably the most important thing I could do.
Anna Lecat: Oh, for sure. That is so great. Your daughter is very lucky.
Colleen: So are your kids. What I am seeing and hearing is that we are modeling things for our kids and, through that, giving them the skills to do conflict in a way that leads to connection. What other things can moms do to give our teens and young adults the skills they need to go into this world that is so divisive?
Anna Lecat: What I also do with my kids is that when they have a conflict at school with a teacher or with other kids, I do not interfere. We have an agreement that I will not go to school and I will not reach out over them. This is a very clear boundary: I will not interfere without their permission. I would rather be a teacher and a guide behind the scenes than go in and participate, or go without them. That is hard because when something happens with my baby, I am a mother bear. I want to go and do things. But it is something my kids asked me not to do, and I respect that. It has been hard at times not to interfere, but what it has given me is more chances to guide them and talk them through the conflicts they are in. I can say, “Can I offer you how I would do it? Can I offer you what I am seeing?” Then they go and do it themselves and come back saying, “I tried that. It sounded so crazy, but I did it, and it totally worked.” For example, there was a bully at school who was bullying my son. The first time I found out, I thought, I am going to call his parents, I am going to talk to him. I wanted to show him that I would protect him and that I always have his back, which I do. But how am I going to do it? He said, “No, I asked you not to.” I said, “Okay, can I offer suggestions?”
Colleen: Yes.
Anna Lecat: I gave him strategies for how to talk to this boy the next time and what to do. For example, I asked, “Does this boy know that you can have access to his parents? Do his parents know what he is doing?” I recommended that the next time he is mocking you or doing whatever he is about to do, remind him that his parents exist and that you have agency to go and talk to his parents. Let’s see if that is enough, because sometimes that can be enough to wake them up. Show agency, and do it in your voice. My son is a public speaker. He does debates. So I said, “Do it in your most powerful voice.” He came back the next day and said, “Oh my God, I thought it would never work, but he just stopped, turned away, and left.” So I think not interfering in what is happening with them, and being behind the scenes discussing it, is very important. The most important thing for me as a parent is that my kids will keep coming to me when they are in trouble, when something really hurts, when they are ashamed, or when something is happening that they do not want to share. They will still come share with me. That is what my eye is on.
Colleen: Yes, I agree. What can moms do to help themselves self-regulate? As you know, moms’ lives are full of work and stress, and I think it is one of the hardest times to be a mom of a tween, teen, or young adult. We are so stressed out. In the United States, there is such an emphasis on perfectionism, so we are always feeling like we are falling short, and that raises the stress. What would you suggest?
Anna Lecat: First of all, I love your work, so I would recommend they buy your books and talk to you. I also have a very good therapist. I will share what I do. For me, my first priority in life, and I say this to my kids, my husband, and my parents, is my mental health. I am a mother, lover, partner, and daughter, but before anything else, my mental health is my number one priority. From morning to evening, this is my first priority. I am constantly scanning myself: how is my first priority doing? Because I know if I give myself up for anything, nothing good will come out of it. I cannot teach my kids anything if I do that. What I want to teach my kids is that their mental health is their first priority. First mental health, then physical health. Because even if you are super healthy, eat healthy, and exercise, if your mental health is not there, it affects your physical health. We talk about it at home all the time. If I am dysregulated, I will say it. Whatever is happening, family meeting or not, I will say, “Okay guys, pause. I am getting triggered. I am not here anymore. I need to take a walk for 10 minutes.” We live by the woods, and I really need nature. So I go to the woods for 10 minutes and come back. “Okay, I’m back.” Number one is putting ourselves first. But not just ourselves in the sense of spa, exercise, smoothie. I am not saying that, although all of that is great. I mean asking: what is it that I need? The way I achieve that is, and I know it may sound obnoxious, my mantra is: what is pleasing me now?
Colleen: I like that.
Anna Lecat: I am constantly asking myself. When I dressed today, I put on this cashmere T-shirt because it is soft, and I like red on me. It makes me happy.
Colleen: It looks great on you.
Anna Lecat: Thank you. But it is not for external validation. It was pleasing me to put this on. I am talking to you because it is pleasing me. I respect you. I love what you do, how you do it, the softness, the deliberateness. Everything about this makes sense to me and aligns with my values and with my nervous system. Spending an hour with you is like honey for my soul. I am getting a therapy session for free. So it is like this all day long: what is pleasing me now? Yes, I have responsibilities, businesses, parents, and children. Still, the first question is: what is pleasing me now? If sitting down and doing homework with my son right now is not going to please me, that homework is not going to go well. I am going to be irritated. I will want to go fast because I cannot wait to go to the woods. It is much better to go to the woods first and be honest about it. “I know this is important. Can it wait 10 minutes? I need 10 minutes. I have been at my desk all day. I need fresh air. You know, mom is obsessed with fresh air.” So I go. That is my secret. Another one is nature. I really feel for people who live in big cities. We are outside of Paris by the woods. All my life, through three immigrations, moves, and travel, when I travel for speaking engagements, I book a hotel by a park or by a river. My preference is that I need to have trees or water for self-regulation. Before a talk, I need to go hug a tree, or if there is sun, I need some kind of time with nature to take care of myself. That is my way, and you have your own way. People have their way. I know you had somebody on your podcast who talked about play. I love that. That is a great way too. If somebody has not listened to that, it is such a good way to do it.
Colleen: This is so wonderful. What last advice do you have for the moms listening?
Anna Lecat: Listen to more of your podcast. The knowledge is here. I also think we should never be alone. I am now 49, and I am going to turn 50 in a few months. I wish I knew this earlier, or I wish somebody had told me earlier. When I was younger, I was very much about self-reliance. My mom taught me, “You should never rely on anybody else. Be strong. Be independent.” The times were different, and it was important in the past that women stand up for themselves. I am glad she taught me this, and I am glad I have the power to build my own businesses, run teams, and do all of this. It is great. And now I am so surrounded. I delegate everything. This morning, my husband told me this. I was doing TEDx, and he had to do parent-teacher conferences for three kids. He spent the whole day meeting every teacher, wrote everything down, and then came and presented it to me because I was not there. He was so excited and proud, and he was so good at creating connections with teachers, understanding, and talking to the kids afterward. He said, “Every time before, we would go together, and I would let you lead. I would be disengaged. I could not be really present. It was not fun for me. This time I loved it.” I said, “Jérôme, from now on, I don’t need to go to this. You go alone. You are so good at this.” So delegate and ask for help. When I was preparing for TEDx, I asked everybody I knew to review my talk, listen to me speak, help me with my hair, do this and do that. I am constantly leaning on somebody. My stance is never, “I am here alone.” It is always, “Help me. Come here. Do that.” And I do this for others too. To be able to ask other people, I need to do this for others as well. I am there to support others. It is building a village around me. Not doing it alone is so important when we are mothers in this modern world.
Colleen: So good. How can moms contact you and find your book Loving Conflict?
Anna Lecat: The book is coming out at the end of March, and my website is annalecat.com.
Colleen: You have been such a gift, and thank you so much for your time today.
Anna Lecat: I loved talking to you, and I will continue listening to you and watching what you create. It is great.
Colleen: Thank you so much.
Anna Lecat: Thank you. It was great meeting you.
You can find out more on Anna’s website at annalecat.com.