Ally Jackson: We are back with Anna. Hi, Anna. Welcome to Finding Mr. Height, the podcast.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much for having me.
Ally Jackson: I am so excited to talk to you today about a topic that it feels weird to say I’m excited to talk about: conflict. But I am excited to talk about conflict.
Anna Lecat: That’s right.
Ally Jackson: I know it’s one of your favorite topics.
Anna Lecat: It is my favorite topic. I believe that without having conflicts, we can’t actually have healthy relationships.
Ally Jackson: Yeah, absolutely. But I think a lot of people are afraid not only of conflict, but of talking about conflict. Do you find that to be true?
Anna Lecat: Definitely. That is why this is my work. I am doing this every day, figuring out how to talk about conflict in a way that is fun, engaging, relaxing, and soft, so that we can learn the skills. Then, when we have those high-stakes conflicts, we know what to do.
Ally Jackson: Before we dive into all of that, how did you come to be in this space? What is your background with conflict?
Anna Lecat: I think I have been in the middle of conflicts all my life. I am Ukrainian. I moved to China when I was 17 years old.
Ally Jackson: Oh wow.
Anna Lecat: I built several global businesses out of China, and we worked between China and the United States. We built businesses between these two countries. I had a global team, so I had a team in France, in the United States, and in China for many years. Having a global team with different cultures and different languages, we had conflicts. I had a Chinese business partner for many years, and it always seemed like if we could figure out the conflict between me and him, we could figure everything else out. So I have practiced since I was 17 years old. My business between China and the United States is quite tough right now because there is a trade war, and the relationship is getting worse between the two countries. So I feel like my life every day is full of conflicts. I also have a husband who is French, and I live in France, and this is my third immigration. I went from Ukraine to China, then to the United States, and now to France. Being an immigrant three times put me in the middle of plenty of conflict.
Ally Jackson: Oh my gosh. A lot of people hear the word conflict and think something has gone wrong, but I know that is not how you define it. So how do you define conflict, especially in dating?
Anna Lecat: It is an uncomfortable conversation. And the way we know that it is uncomfortable is that if we ask that question, it makes us want to cry. Or we know that if we ask that question, we might lose the person. We might never see them again. So it is really scary to say that, and I get that. The good news is that once we learn how to say it, and once we have all the skills for managing those conflicts, on the other side of the conflict is actually a very deep, wonderful relationship.
Ally Jackson: Yeah. I think pushing through that risk can lead to even deeper connection than if you did not do that.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. It is the vulnerability of going through something hard together that gets us closer. We also develop trust by doing something hard together. And if we are doing it right, we share authentic truth with each other, which develops even more trust, connection, and intimacy.
Ally Jackson: Absolutely. Why do you think it is that so many people, especially women, experience conflict as a threat instead of as a tool for connection, like you are saying?
Anna Lecat: Because we were taught that way. We have all been taught to avoid conflict, to be nice to each other, especially women. Be nice to other people, right? That is how we are socialized.
Ally Jackson: Smooth things over.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. Keep it all peaceful. Do not get in trouble. Also, for generations of women, it has been dangerous to get into conflict. So let’s remember that as well. It has been dangerous. So we have learned to keep it quiet, to not get in trouble, to not lead to aggression. And we have been told as women: keep it nice. So we just don’t know how to do it. We don’t know how to bring up difficult topics. We don’t know how to set boundaries and how to request what we really want.
Ally Jackson: I see that come up a lot in dating culture especially because I think there is this idea that connections are scarce. In my experience, it makes us extra afraid to take that quote-unquote risk of conflict because what if this person leaves and there is no one else?
Anna Lecat: That is such a good point. Thank you for saying that. This idea of scarcity is harmful, not only in dating, but everywhere. I see it in businesses. I work with many corporations on their high-stakes conflicts, and it is the same problem. When people avoid conflict, it is because they think there is scarcity of resources. They think there is scarcity of power. They think they need to compete to stay in the game. Going back to dating, when we think this is our only chance and we avoid conflict, the danger is that we do not bring up something really important on our first few dates. Then we have to deal with the consequences of that for the rest of our lives if we stay with this person. So isn’t it better to figure out if this person knows how to fight kindly and how to disagree on the first date?
Ally Jackson: Yeah, absolutely. My next question was going to be: what do you think happens when women suppress that need early on and try to keep things easy, as we were saying? I think that is one outcome, and also probably more dissatisfaction, right?
Anna Lecat: I think what I see with women I work with is that they don’t know what they actually want because they have never really practiced making requests. The mechanism is like this: I identify a desire, a need, or a want, and then I find the right words to request it from my partner or from the other person. Then I get the dopamine, I get the pleasure from getting what I want, and then I thank them and reward them for giving me what I want. That is a great dance in relationships. But because we were not taught to pay attention to what we desire, and we specifically were not taught how to request nicely what we want, we do not get to participate in this whole cycle. So when I work with women, we focus for a long time on what it is that they actually want. What is actually going to please you? That is my mantra. Every day, every moment, I ask myself: what is pleasing me now? What is pleasing me now? You can be assured I am only eating what is pleasing me. I am only talking to who is pleasing me. So for me, right now, talking to you, you know that it is pleasing me.
Ally Jackson: I hope so.
Anna Lecat: I wouldn’t be here unless it was pleasing me. But that is practice. I had to learn that. I was not born with that. I had amazing mentors and teachers. Actually, this phrase, “What’s pleasing me now?” I learned from Midori, who is a sex educator from San Francisco. That is what she teaches women to focus on: what is pleasing you now, and now, and now.
Ally Jackson: It also strikes me as a practice of staying present too, in “what is pleasing me now.” A lot of times, I know I get caught up in, “Well, what could happen? What is going to be next? What is the next thing down the line?” And I lose sight of right now.
Anna Lecat: That is totally true. That is the practice of mindfulness. My personal preference, I am a dancer, a tango dancer, so there is a lot of presence practice in tango. When we are in a dance with somebody else, the dance is fully improvised. The moment one of the partners is not fully present, the moment I think of something else, or I look around, or I think about how I look, or what is going to happen next, that moment we stop dancing. Everything breaks because I am not fully present. I love this practice of dance because I bring the same skill to the rest of my life. I try to be as present in conversations too. I could be talking, and at the same time I am noticing two things. I am noticing how my body is feeling, what the sensations in my body are. And then I am looking at my partner and at the nonverbals. How are they sitting or standing? How are they breathing? What is going on with them? Are we both present?
Ally Jackson: That actually ties in really well to a conversation I had last week with another guest about relatability on dates and finding that emotional connection with somebody that often is not just related to what they are saying, but how they are saying it.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. You talked about nonverbals, noticing their emotion, their tone of voice, getting more information. I think women are usually much better at it because, again, we are socialized to pay attention.
Ally Jackson: Yeah. And I think we have to be careful with that because we are socialized to pay attention and then change our behavior based on what is going to please the other person.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. That is a dangerous trap. Going back to conflict, there is also a conflict with yourself that needs to be looked at. Do I pay attention to what I really want, how I want to be treated, how I want to behave now? Or am I trying to fit into this conversation with this person on a date? Remembering that it could be for the rest of your life, or it could be for a long time that you will have this relationship. So for me, it is always better to be upfront instead of trying to fit in. Be upfront with everything, thinking long term. If you fit in now, then later you have to unlock all of that. I once had this lesson that my friend taught me. He made me chocolate chip cookies. I don’t really like sweets, and he said, “Anna, I made these cookies just for you.” I was really touched that he baked for a long time. I tried the cookie, and I thought, “Oh, damn. This is so sweet.” I don’t really like sweet cookies, but I didn’t say anything because he cooked for me.
Ally Jackson: Oh no. Is he going to make you more cookies now?
Anna Lecat: He looked at me and said, “Anna, if you don’t tell me the truth about the cookie now, I’m going to make this cookie for you for the rest of your life. You’re going to be eating this cookie for the rest of your life.” And I was like, “It’s so sweet. I’m so sorry.” That cookie stayed with me: the taste of the too-sweet cookie in my mouth, thinking, “Oh my God, this is the rest of my life.” So now I am almost obsessive about being upfront in my business negotiations and in any interactions with people. It is like: this is who I am, this is how I am going to be. I am a very good offer otherwise, and I come with this. These are my triggers. It is like giving a blueprint of yourself.
Ally Jackson: You talk about conflict as a practice, and I love thinking about it that way because one of my favorite phrases is progress, not perfection. I try to remind myself of that, though it is very difficult. I am curious for you: what is the difference between connective conflict, where we are building trust, and more destructive conflict?
Anna Lecat: That is a great question. I think the number one priority is kindness. No harsh words should be exchanged. The world is already so harsh. Why would we bring that to our partner or possible date? Of course, it goes back to mindfulness and managing our emotions. Conflict is upsetting. We can get flooded. All of that is understandable. So my number one rule is that I never have difficult conversations when I am angry.
Ally Jackson: Such good advice.
Anna Lecat: If I cannot find the right words, if I cannot be purposeful with each word, if I cannot slow down and breathe slowly, I go back to feeling my body. I want to feel my chest. I want to know where my feet are. If I am dissociated from my body, I say, “Can we take a pause? I need to go for a walk. I need to go into another room.” Or even what works better for me personally, I ask for a hug.
Ally Jackson: I love that.
Anna Lecat: It is so hard to ask for a hug from someone with whom I am angry. And of course, we are only talking about safe situations. We are not talking about times when we need to protect ourselves and run. I am all about standing up for ourselves and keeping ourselves and each other safe. But if we are in a safe situation and something went wrong, and I absolutely need to bring it up because we need to bring up things that make us uncomfortable, I do not do it when I am angry. I do it with kindness. There are all kinds of tricks to get to kindness. Another one that works for me is imagining the other person as they were when they were five.
Ally Jackson: Oh.
Anna Lecat: My whole body just went “aw.”
Ally Jackson: Exactly.
Anna Lecat: That was such a good reaction. They are in pain or scared, or their pride was hurt. Whatever just happened hurt their pride. And somebody whose pride was just hurt, that is not the right time to go after that conversation. The right time now is to hug and soothe each other, to co-regulate, to get back to full safety, and then get back to our adult cognitive mind, our rational mind, and have a calm, loving, rational conversation, as rational as we can.
Ally Jackson: How did you figure out that the hug method worked really well for you versus maybe taking space or asking for a pause? How do you advise somebody to figure out how to handle it if they cannot do it right now?
Anna Lecat: I figured out for myself that going out of the room is not the right method for me because I tend to be a very anxious person, and my brain will start making up more and more stories when I am alone.
Ally Jackson: Yeah, I hear that.
Anna Lecat: When I am in my body, when I am flooded with oxytocin from the hug, my mind stops making up stories. I am such a body person. I am such a pleasure person. I feel pleasure from the hug. Or even if it is not appropriate to ask somebody for a hug, even holding hands, any kind of human contact. If that is not appropriate, I just ask to be quiet and look each other in the eyes.
Ally Jackson: That is intense.
Anna Lecat: It can be intense. But if I am looking at somebody and thinking of them as five, they feel it. You have an amazing reaction. If you are looking at them with that face and you have so much love in your face, they know, they feel it. They also relax. Their relaxation co-regulates me, and I am not in my story-making mind. I am back to what is real, what is about the relationship. That is my method for me because I feel my body so strongly. However, I totally understand that there are people who might get even more flooded if they stay in the presence of somebody who just irritated them or triggered them. For them, it could be safer to go, get distracted, or listen to music. They could stay together but listen to music or watch a movie together, just take their mind off what just happened so that the anger and flooding can go away.
Ally Jackson: How would you advise two people in a relationship if they have opposite needs in that sense, where one of them really wants that oxytocin bonding, and the other one is like, “I’m going to get flooded”?
Anna Lecat: As you know, most of the time it is like that.
Ally Jackson: Yes. That is why I asked the question.
Anna Lecat: It would be perfect if we found copies of ourselves. It would be so much easier. But we do not. We choose people who are our best teachers. So it is going to be hardest with the partner we selected because we need to learn this. For example, with me and my husband, we are totally opposite in the way we regulate. He wants to be alone in a dark room thinking about things.
Ally Jackson: Oh my God, that would be a nightmare for me.
Anna Lecat: Right? And he actually goes, calms down, and becomes very rational. He is an engineer, so it is easy for him to go back to the rational mind: What happened? What did we say? Where did we go wrong? How do we fix it? That is my husband. For me, getting to that rational mind takes a lot of work, and I need all the oxytocin possible. He comes from a French culture where there is very little hugging involved.
Ally Jackson: It is connection through conversation.
Anna Lecat: Yes.
Ally Jackson: Through eating together, having experiences together. Connection does not happen with the body.
Anna Lecat: But not as physically.
Ally Jackson: And I am a very physical person. My love language is physical touch. If you are not touching me, I think you hate me.
Anna Lecat: So the way we fight, we have been together for 15 years now, we talked about it on the first date. I was very upfront: this is what I need. And he was very upfront too. He was like, “Oh, problem. I don’t know how to provide that. I don’t know how to hug. I am very uncomfortable about this whole idea of hugging.” We were both committed and interested in the relationship. So we both said, “Okay, I now know that you are different from me. I know that you are not wrong. You are not broken. And I am not broken. We are just different.” I think that is the number one step. When we notice a huge difference between us and our partner or potential date, they are not broken, and neither are we. They are just a different version of humanity that is as beautiful as us. When we talk about attachment styles and people say, “Oh, he is avoidant…”
Ally Jackson: Both are insecure attachment.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. It is okay. It is not his fault. Those are the cards that were dealt to him. If you know this upfront, how do you then communicate? My husband is learning so hard to hug, and he will still not really hug. I will put his hands around me. After 15 years. And then he is breathing like, “When is it going to be over?” And I say, “Just one more minute. It’s okay. Oxytocin is coming, I promise.” And then I know that he needs verbal processing. He cannot wait until tomorrow. He is a pro-intellectual processor. It is give and take. How do we give to both of us? Because there is actually no scarcity in kind, loving ways.
Ally Jackson: As listeners are thinking about this, let’s say they are in the dating phase. They are going on first dates, they are in early dating. What do you think are some common early dating conflicts that actually matter, that we can look at to gauge what that might look like in the future?
Anna Lecat: Since I am a conflict lover, I think every conflict matters. Anytime there is a moment of “oh,” I would dig into that nicely and kindly from the first date, remembering that if it is done correctly, if it is done lovingly with repair afterward, these are the moments when you are building intimacy and trust. Pretending that it is all good does not build trust. Attachment is not being developed in that first date. Pretending on the first date is completely counterproductive because if you are into someone, you want to start developing attachment from the very beginning, if you want an attachment-based relationship. That means trust. That means being vulnerable and authentic because the only way we trust other people is when we see them as they are in reality, not pretending. When I look at the younger generation, at women who are now 18 or 20 years old, I already see that they are much better than my generation. I am going to turn 50 in a few days, and I look at them and I am so thrilled that there is much faster feedback from them. They know they need to bring things up: “I don’t like how you just did that,” or, “Let’s talk about who is going to pay.”
Ally Jackson: Yeah.
Anna Lecat: Every time we bring up those hard conversations, the process is: this is why it is important to me. When you disclose why it is important to you, it is really important to go super deep. Not the surface, not “culture tells me to discuss this.” It is: “For me, it is very important to pay half of the check because when I was growing up, we were really poor, and we were taught that it is important to contribute to society,” or, “My value is connected to what I earn, so I would like to show you that this is who I am, and that is why it is important to me.” Say it upfront and don’t wait until the conflict blows up and people are angry.
Ally Jackson: That is one great example. Do you have another example of something that could come up in early dating that maybe a client of yours has had, and how to talk through that in the kind way you are talking about?
Anna Lecat: What kind of relationship are you looking for? That is such a good conversation to have right away. What are you looking for? What are you about? What moved you to go on a date? That is a conflict. It is a difficult conversation because to dig deeper, to keep double-clicking, the other person provides information, and you keep double-clicking: “Let me ask you more about it.” That can bring things up. It can bring up stories, uncomfortable stories.
Ally Jackson: I think that double-clicking idea is really great. It is something we talked about last week too. As you are doing that, to your point, it is potentially an uncomfortable conversation. There is discomfort maybe on both ends. How do you discern between this is just uncomfortable because we are not used to it and something that is more of a red flag for you, something where you should be like, “Maybe this is not going to work for me”?
Anna Lecat: I think it is very good to understand: is this my boundary that has been crossed, versus am I uncomfortable because it reminds me of something that happened in the past, and I am actually experiencing this discomfort because of what happened in the past and not because of this particular person? It is important to know our own boundaries upfront and vocalize them to ourselves and to our friends. For example, I work with women who cannot handle male anger because of their past history. They just cannot. So we talk about it, and they are very upfront with their dates: “This is what happened to me. It does not have to be in detail, but something happened to me in the past, and now I have this major trigger. So when you talk, and if you are going to show anger, this is what is going to happen to me.” Being super clear about our boundaries, and if we see that showing up, I always like to tell people upfront so that they don’t walk into it.
Ally Jackson: That is information, right?
Anna Lecat: Yes. It is information. And again, it is not their fault. There is so much conversation now about red flags, and I think we are overdoing it. We are meeting another human being who has a history. Nobody has had an easy life. Something happened to them. So staying curious, even if you see something that you consider a red flag, as long as you are safe, as long as you know that you can get up and leave safely. I stay for a long time because I like to discover more. I know that if I push through the discomfort, I will learn something about them and about myself every time.
Ally Jackson: I totally agree with you that we have overdone the red flag language. When I think about it, I define it as something that is not going to work for me. It is like a red flag for myself, not a judgment on them as a person.
Anna Lecat: I don’t know if you have the same experience. I work with women who are in their 40s and 50s, very successful women who cannot find a partner. When they come to me, they often come with a long list of red flags. The longer they live, the more experience they have, of course, and the longer that list. To me, the first question is always: what do you think would be on the red flag list about you? We all have them. We are annoying, and we can be extremely annoying and difficult and high-maintenance and unkind and judgmental and opinionated. All of those things could be somebody’s red flag. Wouldn’t you want somebody to give you a second chance? Wouldn’t you want to be loved through all this and loved with the understanding that when I am being annoying, it is because I am feeling scared, uncomfortable, or unsafe? Otherwise, I would not be annoying. I would be hugging everyone. So it is about staying curious and kind and understanding. I love psychology, so I am biased here, but when somebody shows up and shows any sign of very strange behavior, I love it. I want to understand where it is coming from and how they have adapted and lived their lives with all that. Again, going back to: if they were five, would I forgive them all that and be more understanding?
Ally Jackson: It is a really great framework to think about. It also makes it so important, like you said, to be super clear about what you really need because you are right, everybody is going to have their red flags. Everybody is going to have their stuff. But it is like my dad used to say: whose stuff can you deal with? Because everyone has it. It does not mean you have to deal with everyone’s stuff.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. And to me, right now in my life, I always think that I want kindness over anything else. Why go out of the house and interact with people if I am not going to be surrounded by kindness?
Ally Jackson: That is beautiful.
Anna Lecat: Everything else can be discussed. For example, some of my clients are very intellectually developed and very successful financially, and one of their parameters is that they are looking for somebody who is as affluent and as smart. It is like, “Of course they need to match me. They need to be my equal there.” And I am all for equality. I also think it is very important that we are equal with our partners, that there is give and take, that we receive as much as we give out, and that we have good friends who will tell us the truth about ourselves and be great mirrors for us. I think it is very important that there is equality, but does it have to be equality in all parameters?
Ally Jackson: I was about to say, there is give and take. Not everything is exactly 50/50 all the time.
Anna Lecat: Right. I have had success with clients who were Harvard graduates, very successful CEOs, women who found these incredibly kind men who were at their service. They travel together, explore together, climb mountains together. They may not be having the intellectual conversations with them that they could have with other people. But it takes a village. We say it takes a village to raise a child. I think it takes a village to raise an adult.
Ally Jackson: Just to be a human.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. If you cannot have that level of intellectual conversation with your romantic partner, then surround yourself with incredibly smart friends and have that part of your life expressed there, not necessarily with this one partner who has to provide everything to you.
Ally Jackson: I don’t think any one person can provide everything to you. Even if we think about our friends, there are different friends that I like to do different things with and have different types of conversations with.
Anna Lecat: Absolutely. Do you see that also in your practice, that people are asking for everything in one perfect package?
Ally Jackson: Yeah. I think society tells us that this is going to happen, that there is going to be one person who completes us, which I don’t like as language, but that there is going to be one person who is the everything in our life. I just don’t think that is realistic.
Anna Lecat: Right. And we are not that person for somebody else.
Ally Jackson: Yeah, totally.
Anna Lecat: There are so many things I do not like to do. My husband is a kitesurfer. For me, it is too much stimulation. Too much wind, water, wetness, and cold.
Ally Jackson: Wind and water are pretty much the two core elements of kitesurfing. I agree with you.
Anna Lecat: Right. And it is fast. There is a lot of adrenaline. Because of my anxiety, adrenaline and I do not go well together. I will do everything possible to not have anything adrenaline-inducing. So I will go and run in the morning and then sit with a book on the beach.
Ally Jackson: That sounds lovely.
Anna Lecat: But I am not the perfect package for him because for him it would be perfect if his wife were kitesurfing with him. So staying humble, knowing we are not a perfect package, and hopefully still loving ourselves, right? We are a great offer even though we cannot meet all the requirements.
Ally Jackson: Absolutely. Thinking about two very different people coming into a relationship, like you and your husband or people in longer-term relationships, you are going to have hard conversations and conflicts come up. What do you think is a really simple way to stay regulated before that hard conversation? If you are thinking about asking a question and there is emotion coming up for you, what is the plan?
Anna Lecat: My plan is always to say what I feel, to disclose that I am feeling it.
Ally Jackson: Oh, yeah.
Anna Lecat: To be very honest. I even do it on stage. I am a public speaker, and I will go on stage and say, “Today, I am feeling this.” Coaches of public speakers always say, “Never tell people on stage that you are nervous.”
Ally Jackson: That sounds so human though.
Anna Lecat: I talk about conflict and intimacy. I am going to be intimate on stage, saying, “This is who I am. I feel this way.” If it is a hard conversation and I feel like I am about to cry because I am so scared to bring it up, or I am afraid that I am going to say it and he is going to leave forever, those conversations are best started with, “I am so scared to say this to you. I am petrified. I am shaking. I haven’t slept all night. I need to say it. Is this a good time?” Then I prepare the person: this is going to be big. I am scared. I need this from you. If I know that the person in front of me is not a great listener, that they like to fix things and act right away, I will actually say, “Do you need a piece of paper to write down your thoughts? I want to know how you want to fix it, but not right away. I appreciate that you are action-oriented. I think it is beautiful. There is nothing wrong with that. And what I need is to say what I want to say. It is very hard for me. I will probably be crying. Please do not defend yourself. I am not criticizing you. I am not here to fight. It is you and me together against a problem.” It is you and me and our relationship, and we are sitting together. That is another thing I do. I never do this in a restaurant sitting opposite each other. Conflicts need to be talked about sitting next to each other, so there is this feeling of “we are in this together against the problem,” not “I am against you right now.” I will actually sit next to whoever I want to talk to in a restaurant and say, “Okay, this is a hard conversation. I need to be close to you. In front of us is this issue.” Knowing that I am going to disclose to the person how I feel means I do not need to prepare much beforehand. I just need to scan my body and know how I feel, because disclosing already regulates. Being truthful about how we feel calms us down because we vocalize what we are feeling. So I disclose and then prepare how it is going to go. I am basically facilitating the conversation as I do it. And then it is super important to do repair afterward. I learned this from our marriage counselor, who recommended that we start with, “I love you, and we are going to be okay. I have a hard topic to discuss. I love you. We are going to be okay.” Then to close, after we had the argument, the big conversation, the hard things we had to talk about, we end with, “I love you. We are going to be okay.”
Ally Jackson: That is an incredible start and end, especially because I really like the idea of preparing someone that you are going to say something difficult for you, for them, or for the relationship, but without them thinking there is a breakup coming.
Anna Lecat: Exactly.
Ally Jackson: Because my mind would immediately go there.
Anna Lecat: Right. That is brilliant. That is so important to say upfront: “I am not going to break up with you.”
Ally Jackson: Yes. “I love you. We are going to be okay. This is not a breakup conversation at all. In fact, I am having a hard conversation with you because I am committed to our relationship. Once this is over, we are going to be better off than we are now.” I think that is so important. So important to indicate from the beginning that you are a team against whatever the thing is that you are going to bring up.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. Because there is always a third. There is me, there is you, and then there is a third, which is our relationship that we are creating together. We are tending to it like our garden, or a tree, or a dog. We are tending to it together.
Ally Jackson: On the other side, we have talked a lot about advice for bringing up a hard conversation when you are the one expressing a need. But there is also the skill, the practice of being the one receiving that need or receiving that hard conversation. What is your advice for somebody who might tend toward defensiveness, fixing it, or whatever it is?
Anna Lecat: If somebody is bringing up a hard conversation with us, the first point is to remember that it is hard for them. I think we get defensive right away because we think we are being attacked and we are unsafe. We start tending to ourselves and forget our partner, who is probably shaking, sweating, and worrying about bringing it up. So it goes back to kindness and avoiding harsh words, even if we feel that we need to fight because we feel unsafe. It is again about being honest about our feelings. Let’s say somebody says to you, “When you do this, I hate it. It upsets me. Stop doing that.” And I feel flooded because I think what I hear is, “I do not love you. You are unlovable.”
Ally Jackson: Yeah. “I hate you,” not “I hate that thing.”
Anna Lecat: Exactly. When I think I am unlovable, I check out. For me, I am just like, “I’m done here. You don’t understand how lovable I am. I’m out of here.” In the past, it would be, “Okay, this is off we go.” Now it is, “What you just said actually made me feel so unsafe. I just made up a story that I am unlovable.”
Ally Jackson: So you are saying that back to the other person in real time?
Anna Lecat: Yes. I am real-time upfront about my fears and my stories. Actually verbalizing the stories my brain makes up is an incredibly intimacy-generating experience. I have been doing it for a while now, and it is incredible to tell other people what my brain just made up. It is very vulnerable because when I say it, I am like, “Oh my God, did I actually just imagine that I am unlovable and this relationship is over because I didn’t wash my teacup?”
Ally Jackson: Sometimes for me, when I say it out loud, even just me saying it out loud makes me realize that is really silly.
Anna Lecat: That is it. And look at you now. You are so lovable right now because you said it and then thought it was silly. First of all, you are not going to be thinking that thought anymore, so that story is deleted because it has been processed. And you are so adorable. The person who was upset with you because you didn’t wash your cup is now hugging you because you are so adorable, because them going after you for not washing the cup led you to think that you are unlovable. We are back to intimacy, and then we can giggle and talk about washing the cup next time. It is very counterintuitive because we want to put on more armor when we feel unsafe. But actually, in these conflicts, removing the armor helps us come to resolution, love, and kindness. It is being honest: “Oh, you just said that, and I feel like I want to go and climb into my bed because I feel five right now.” That is another thing: I like to name my age when I regress during conflict. I like to name it. Like, “I am right now a 13-year-old teenager. I should not be speaking right now because anything I say is going to be so obnoxious. Please, just let this be processed. I have a playlist for my teenager, and I will go and dance it out because my teenager should not be speaking.”
Ally Jackson: I don’t know if anyone’s teenager should be speaking.
Anna Lecat: I don’t know many teens who would be good in conflict, unless we teach them. I have three kids, and they are amazing. But regression, when I regress and notice it, naming it is so yummy. It is so nice if I say, and people around me now know, “I’m five,” or “I’m totally five years old right now.” They know I need a hug. Think about it. If a five-year-old is having a tantrum or is upset, the first thing we do is hold them because they need to be held and regulated right now.
Ally Jackson: This is all such practical information. I think it is helpful to think about and remember that there are two sides happening, where you are feeling five and maybe the person you are in conflict with is feeling 15 again. Both of you are having these separate experiences, but you could maybe bring those experiences together and bond over them.
Anna Lecat: Exactly. I think what is great is that if we are in a long-term relationship, or if we have had several dates and there is some communication and some trust, there can be anchor words that are part of your way of relating and communicating. For example, with me and my husband, it is “ouch.” It is simple. I asked him this when we just started dating. I said, “If I say anything that hurts you, I didn’t mean to hurt you. I don’t want to hurt you. A priori, I am so into you. I don’t ever want to hurt you. So if I said something that hurt you, it is because I am hurt right now. I am proud, irritated, bored. If I am bored, I might say something that hurts you because I am looking for entertainment. Be careful.” I am upfront about it. He knows to say “ouch.” Every time I hear “ouch,” I am like, “Oh my God, I am so sorry. Wait. Okay. I take it back. I didn’t mean that. I see that sentence I said was dismissive or disrespectful. Please accept my apologies. I didn’t want to hurt you.” And vice versa, I also say “ouch.” Usually it is because I asked for a hug and he didn’t hear. So having those code words to indicate that we are regressing, or we feel unsafe, or we feel hurt, gives the other person a chance to be more deliberate in how they are communicating something hard to us.
Ally Jackson: I like “ouch” a lot because it is simple, and it is a word that is already obviously in our vocabulary. It is not a weird thing. That is what you say when you get hurt.
Anna Lecat: Right. And we are also trained to pay attention. If somebody says “ouch,” we always ask, “What is going on? What happened?” The emotional wound sometimes hurts more than the physical wound.
Ally Jackson: Oh my God. Yes. I am going to bring this up to my boyfriend. I feel like that is a good word to use. We do this, but we don’t have a specific word. I think that is a really great idea. I am going to try to implement this in my relationship.
Anna Lecat: Oh, cool. Great.
Ally Jackson: Anna, thank you so much for this conversation. I could truly talk to you all day. There are so many different nuances of this, and I thank you for bringing this to our listeners. I know they are going to find it really, really helpful.
Anna Lecat: Thank you so much for having me. For me, it is really my passion. I have a deep belief that if we have better relationships, if we are loved well, we become less aggressive in the world. As I explained to you, I am in the middle of several wars, so I am really doing this to hopefully have fewer wars in the world. I know it is a very ambitious goal, and I just want to do whatever I possibly can. If we have fewer conflicts, or if we love them and do them better, they are shorter and we have better relationships.
Ally Jackson: Hear, hear. Amen to that. How can our listeners find you if they would like to hear more?
Anna Lecat: My book is coming out at the end of March, March 31. It is called Loving Conflict.
Ally Jackson: Amazing.
You can find out more on Anna’s website at annalecat.com.